I can be contacted on thehighlandtiger@yahoo.co.uk

Monday, 27 September 2010

Find some leopard hairs in the UK countryside and all hell breaks loose.

Now I expect those of you when reading the headline here, would be expecting yet another expose of the Centre for Fortean Zoology (CFZ). I'm afraid though you will be dissappointed. In this case the CFZ are not to blame for anything, although they are connected to it.

The examination of "leopard" hairs at the recent CFZ Weird Weekend by Lars Thomas, is well known now amongst those with a crypto-interest. It is also well known that hairs were found by another group other than the CFZ, The Wiltshire Phenomena Research group. You can read what the WPR said about it in a previous article on this blog.

All well and good you might say. Leopard hairs found in the UK countryside and confirmed as such. Of course this doesn't confirm the existance of leopards in the UK, as there is no way of knowing how the hairs got there, but it is certainly a step in the right direction. (I've also read today that the CFZ have got a second expert to view the hairs and they too confirm the original identification)

In this months Fortean Times, there is the following short article
"New Evidence for Big Cats"., by Lars Thomas. Here he describes the evidence he examined, mentioning both the CFZ and the WPR.

Here is where it unravels very quickly, not with the CFZ but with the WPR. To such an extent that the WPR has now ceased to exist and has renamed itself as
"The British Anomalistic Research Society (BARsoc)".

Why has this happenned you may well ask. well it appears that the Fortean Times article caused a bit of a storm within the WPR, with the sceptics being very unhappy that their organisation was by association being linked with a report that the evidence found proved that big cats existed in the UK countryside. With the leaders of the group, altering their blogs and comments and laying the blame at a small 4 man crypto group known as the
"Four-teans", (nice pun and name). It seems that the WPR group that found the leopard hairs was part WPR and part Four-teans. From what I can gather, and it is a very mixed up situation, the WPR are very much a sceptic based orgnisation. This is of course very different from a sceptical organisation. The last thing sceptics want is evidence to prove them wrong. Being sceptical however means that you are prepared to accept evidence and alter your beliefs accordingly.

The fallout of all this is a lot of messy accusations aimed at the Four-tean group from the WPR, leading to a rebranding of the WPR to the BARsoc and a distancing of them from the finding of the hairs, even insinuating the hairs were deliberated placed there by the Four-teans.

Now from what I can see, the Four-teans have actually done nothing wrong here. They were all upfront and never made any outrageous claims. They seem to have fallen foul of the political crossfire within the WPR. Now I feel slightly responsible here. It was my article about the WPR that lead the CFZ to admit more than one group found hairs at the Weird Weekend, and so lead to the WPR getting equal "billing" on Lars Thomas Fortean Times article. I'm sure if I had never written about the WPR then I very much doubt if tthey would have appeared in the FT article.

In the last few days I have been contacted by the Four-teans who feel very agrieved at the way they have been treated by people they once thought of colleagues or friends. They were in a bit of a quandry of how to reply to all these accusations, feeling they didn't want to post anything on their site, because they were already getting heaps of accusations by emails. I offered to put up their reply on this blog, and allow any reply comments to be placed here. This would both allow them them to put up their defence, whilst not causing problems on their own site.

Their reply along with links can be found below.

One final point, regarding the WPR and their name change to "The British Anomalistic Research Society". Now I'm sure people have realised by now, I don't hold with pomposity and people trying to look more important and academic than they really are. Well so does the British Government. There are rules and regulations regarding names you can use when describing an organisation or company. Especially the words "British" and "Society".

The Companies House Website says the following about the use of these names.

"British" - If you wish to use the word at the beginning of your company name you would need to show that the company is pre-eminent in its field by providing independent support from a representative body, trade association or government department.

If the word is used elsewhere in the name, you would be expected to show that your company is substantial in relation to its activity or product and that it is eminent in its own field.

The company’s registered office must be in England and Wales.
"Society" - To use this word the company should normally be limited by guarantee with each member having one vote, and include a non-profit distribution clause in the articles of association. If the company is limited by shares its articles would still need to include a clause stating each member had one vote and also a not for profit distribution clause.

Now I hope the BARS before they get the new T-Shirts printed have got all the relevant approvals from the government. I will be checking up in this in the near future.

Here is the defence from the Four-teans. I will be happy to post any reply from the WPR/BARS.




Longleat Forest Leopard Hair. The Defence.

Since the news of a hair, identified as being leopard, came into the mainstream blogs last Thursday (9th Sept) after being mentioned in Fortean Times, it has caused a veritable storm. Most of the blogs are highly critical of the four-teans group, with suggestions of fraudulent activities including planting the hair, manipulating the results etc. It has also been suggested we used the Wiltshire Phenomenon Research group (now defunct and renamed as BARS, British Anomalistic Research Society, a phoenix which has risen from WPR) as the respectable vehicle to push our ambiguous claims. In actual fact we were not claiming anything, we leave that to others better qualified than ourselves. The accusation that were accusing Hayley Stevens of conspiring to ''cover up'' the truth is, quite frankly, ridiculous! what truth? We never claimed anything! In addition the Longleat find seems to have become inextricably linked to the Huddisford woods finds.



Most of the events reported would have been easily provable before the WPR website was torn down. If anyone wishes to contradict them they are welcome to, we know we are telling the truth. The four-teans feel badly let down by WPR, with two of them not even knowing about the Longleat events. The case in fact had nothing to do with the four-teans at all, and you would have thought anyone visiting our website would have found it strange it wasn’t even mentioned aside a short paragraph at the end of the blog on the Huddisford Wood findings. But apparently they didn't, obviously preferring instead to believe we had stitched up WPR.


The news unleashed a veritable shitstorm onto the four-teans site, with derogatory
comments being unleashed via the ''contact us'' feature. So to put the record straight, here are the full facts.


Colin of the four-teans was also a member of WPR. Hayley, its co-founder, advertises herself as the rather friendly sceptic. Initially just paranormal investigators, the decision was taken by WPR, with no direct encouragement, to branch out into other areas; one of these being cryptozoology.



Having heard reports about sightings of big cats in the Wiltshire area and in particular a recent one in the vicinity of Longleat Forest, Hayely asked me if I would be willing to lead a WPR expedition into Longleat Forest to investigate the claims. I agreed and asked if it would be ok for Perry to come along also, not because he's a better tracker, fraudster, or anything else you care to mention, but because he only lives 45 minutes up the road and had never been to the Forest as he doesn’t drive. Please note then that
the head of WPR (or BARS) thought up the investigation and planned it. As an
added bit of interest for the group I also asked along Marcus Matthews, who is a
local author and researcher; he knows all the local sightings, as most are reported directly to him. Marcus was to take us on a short walk round the footpaths and point out to us where the most recent sightings had actually occurred. Duly, the news that WPR were to investigate the claims of big cats in Longleat Forest was announced on the front page of their site, with the further announcement that all findings by the group would be reported after the investigation.


We arrived at the woods on the day in question and parked up. In attendance were: Hayley, Sharon and Charlie of WPR, (Charlie is Hayley's younger brother, so I would class him as WPR) myself ( WPR but also four-tean) Perry (four-tean) Nadia (Perry's partner & driver) and Marcus Matthews. The stroll round the footpaths took longer than anticipated, perhaps an hour and a half, with various prints in soft ground looked at and dismissed. Arriving back at the car park, Marcus took his leave, which left just five of us. It was I or Perry who suggested (but I can’t remember which one of us) that we now went off track into the forest itself. Hayley and Sharon however were reluctant for whatever reason and chose instead to stay behind at a cafe across the road. This meant just three of us entered the woods. We were in the woods I would estimate for, approx, another one and a half hours. Various things were examined and for the most part dismissed. One thing we did come across was a tree with scratch marks about seven feet up the trunk, which is indicative of big cat, although we took photographs we even dismissed this as we felt it wasn’t clear cut enough, and could have possibly been caused by deer rubbing their antlers. We did decide water and food within the woods was plentiful, we saw loads of evidence for the presence of deer, rabbit, fox and badger.
It was as we were starting to make our way back that we came across a definite trail of something that had pushed through the undergrowth. The track made through the undergrowth was approx two feet in height, making a definite tunnel-like effect. Investigating further it was noticed just opposite what-ever-it-was had pushed through, was a four strand barbed wire fence. Sheep wool was prevalent on the strands; but standing out like a sore thumb amongst all the white was a single black hair. We didn’t know what it was but it was collected as per procedure with latex gloves and placed into a sealed bag. The find I should point out was in a totally different part of the wood to where we had walked earlier.


We arrived back at the cars and met back up with Hayley and Sharon, showing them
the find. The same evening WPR reported the investigation findings on their website. ALL operatives were referred to as WPR personnel. The hair find was also announced with the statement that it was hoped to be tested. Yes, I work for Rentokil and we have a research and development department. I managed to get it tested but obviously Rentokil are not really geared towards identification of such things; I did however manage to get an identification of felid, which wasn’t too exciting as it could have come from a tom cat at the nearest farm. And there for a few weeks the matter rested. I can’t remember if the ID of felid was ever announced on the WPR site; if pushed I’d say it wasn't, although there was an update on the case posted on WPR. This brings us to the weekend of the CFZ conference in Devon. This weekend is well documented in our blog so I’m not going into any further detail here. It's not as easy as you may think getting a hair tested for positive species identification. I had no idea how to do it, and as Hayley was to find out when she wanted a second opinion: just who do you ask without having to pay extortionate fees? Museums, zoos or universities are just not interested. However I knew Lars Thomas would be able to do it for me, especially as luck would have it he was actually going to be doing a lecture on hair identification at the conference. This is actually a hobby of Lars; he has thousands of hairs from different animals in his
collection.


As we now know, it was identified as “...not maybe, not possibly, but definitely Leopard”. This is where it gets interesting for me. I, of course, reported by text immediately to WPR. It was announced with caveats on the site (second opinion etc). So it was still a WPR case. Hayley made enquiries for getting a second opinion, but came across the same problems I had had: Just where do you get a hair tested?


On the 9th September the Fortean Times carried the article about the Huddisford Woods findings (one cat scat contained over 20 leopard hairs); yes the four-teans were implicitly involved in this. WPR were also mentioned by Lars for the Longleat find; he mistakenly attributed all of us to WPR and made the erroneous connection to the Huddisford finds, and so the trouble began. To my mind WPR at this point panicked. Up until this point all the reporting on the site on the investigation had been reasonable,
sensible, and not biased one way or the other, as of course it should be. Once the Fortean Times piece was published the site was obviously going to generate a lot more hits. It is, of course, only right that any cryptozoological evidence should be questioned, but not with unfactual statements and innuendo's against an innocent group.


A front page headline on the WPR site announced “Have you come to the site because of the leopard hair announcement in Fortean Times? If so click here”; this then took you into Hayley’s blog, where she was announcing “I’m not saying the hair was planted, but...” or “I’m not saying Lars mixed up the samples, but...” No, she may not have been saying that... but! we feel the idea was certainly being planted into people's minds, deliberately or not. Worse still was the fact that she announced the unfactual information into sightings of a big cat in the area: The statements though once again spun a negative aspect onto the case. In fact, on the 18th of August on her own blog Hayley had stated: ''We’ve also recieved numerous eye-witness reports of big cats in the same area so this is a case that is still being worked on''

The blog obviously provoked a lot of comments with ALL comments being in agreement with the facts (sic) presented by Hayley. Then it got worse. I posted a reply onto the blog regarding a few points; when, to my dismay, I re-read Hayley's original blog only to find she had changed a large part of it. Gone was the assertion of only one sighting, gone were a few other statements too. This is moving the goalposts to a high degree; in fact I would call it cheating! Changing your original blog facts because someone challenges them successfully is at the least underhand. The announcement was then made that this wasn’t in fact a WPR case at all! No, it was in fact a four-tean case. Oh right! I see!
The investigation was announced on the WPR site as a WPR investigation, reported
on the site as being conducted by WPR members, findings reported as WPR findings, but when the going gets a bit tough announce “it's nothing to do with me guv”; and so four-teans, two of whom know nothing about it anyway, get vilified with phrases like “consider it likely to be outright fraud by four-tean group”. And god knows where our supposed claim of “undeniable proof” came from. I also love the quote “And in such a small area, and such a large predator requiring food, I’m sure we’ll have it captured or killed within weeks if it’s really there. Let’s see what happens” We will? Is this person getting a team together then, to clear up the mystery? I doubt it, or maybe I just don’t
understand sarcasm.


This is a link to above quotes:


http://www.realityismyreligion.com/pseudoscience/a-leopard-in-the-uk-accusations-biases-and-closed-mindedness#comment-802


As well as the above and the remarks on the WPR site, as mentioned before, derogatory comments were being thrown at the four-teans on their own site which hadn’t even announced or claimed anything. I challenged Hayley by private email about trust in members, the response being that unless she had seen, or experienced something herself she couldn’t be sure it was true. Not much point in sending members out whilst sitting drinking tea then really, in fact not much point in having members at all!


Interesting philosophy, and if that’s what you live by then fair enough, but I believe she in fact broke her own rules by stating a “fact” on the blog by quoting the study of Nowell & Jackson. ''In their IUCN survey, Nowell and Jackson suggest male home territories vary between 30–78 km2(7413.2 acres – 19274.2 acres), but just 15–16 km2 (3706.5 acres) for females'' and of course the forests around Longleat are not nearly that large.
Really? Where did she pull that from? The internet no doubt, but wherever it was from, was she there? Did she take part in the study? How does she know it's true and factual?
In fact the study is likely to be correct, but guess what? The study would have been into the leopards’ natural habitat, where a lot of their territory is savannah; prey is sparsely spread and constantly on the move. A UK cat would not have far to travel at all to get a meal. The deer population in the UK has exploded in the last 10 years, not to mention badgers, foxes, rabbits etc, all easily available to a predator, in fact they’re spoiled for choice. They even have road kill. Why travel?

After a couple more emails between Hayley and I, WPR pulled down their site and all evidence of what I’m saying here has gone. But it is all the truth and I challenge anyone to contradict it. If they do, so be it, but we know the truth of what is being written here.
I have also managed to retrieve an archive of the WPR site relating to the Longleat study from Google to back up my case; please click on the link to read further.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZKUlHEy1dSoJ:www.wiltsphenom.wordpress.com/+wpr+longleat+forest&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
And here is the link to the Original blog piece that was posted


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AfS-GJO0-JgJ:weirdwiltshire.net/2010/09/09/534/+leopard%E2%80%99+hair+clarification&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk


Unfortunately, it's the only archives I’ve been able to find relating to the WPR Longleat case, but I haven’t given up on finding more. The changed blog of above will I suspect be lost forever, as it was only online a few hours before the site was removed. This original blog though, even before the revised one, disowning all responsibility, provided the first signs of the WPR distancing themselves from responsibility in the first sentence!
Notice as well on this original post the errors and inconsistencies for such an important piece, knowing there would be massive hits owing to the Fortean Times article ''Firstly I should point out that Perry & Colin are from the Four-Teans and were simply joined by some members of Wiltshire Phenomena Research'' With the following sentence though, she was saying in fact the hair was found by WPR, contradictory I feel! ''Secondly, included was the hair sample that Wiltshire Phenomena Research found in Longleat Forest earlier this year'' Yes, thats what people had come to the site to find out about!
It went on to say '' When Colin took the hair sample to the Weird Weekend with him it
had already been tested by Rentokil (a team member works for the company) and the analysis had come back saying that the hair was feline. The ''team member'' who works for Rentokil is actually me, so looks like i'd suddenly become a WPR team member again rather than a four-tean!


Then came the errors in facts such as ''One single leopard hair does not, in my opinion, prove that a leopard is living in Longleat forest. I would expect there to be other evidence too. Scat, other hairs, prints, carcasses…'' No one had claimed it to be proof, and we agree it proves nothing. In addition we had spent a total of 3 hours exploring a small part of the forest, half that actually in the forest off track; so maybe in such a short space of time it's not that suprising ''other evidence'' wasn't found. We got lucky finding anything at all. Other evidence has in fact been found by different researchers. ''The forests are not that large and the cat sightings have been of dark coloured cats during the day. Leopards tend to be nocturnal, though daytime sightings are possible'' misleading, as recent studies by radio tracking have shown that forest Leopards are more inclined to be both diurnal and crepuscular (active during the day, and active during twilight and dusk) ''There has (been) one sighting at night time on a road near the forests, but an exact date for this is not known'' Untrue. The sightings may or may not be erroneous but there are some, and their documented. In fact over the last 10 years or so around 50 well documented sightings have occured around the area at different times of day. ''Not to mention that close by is the Safari Park who would probably be aware if there were cats prowling the locality, which they aren’t'' Did someone ask them then?
If they did i'm unaware of it. (edit; A post on facebook on 17th Sept, six days after this statement, has stated '' have just had an interesting email from the head warden at Longleat Safari Park who said'' "I would have to question that a single hair was found on a fence could be confirmed as a leopard." This would suggest to me that no contact was made before. It would of course be evidence against any presence of a big cat. That's fine, once again I must reiterate four-teans were not claiming anything)


It may also have been helpful, just to balance things up a little, to have included the direct quote from Gary Mantle who is Head of Wiltshire Wildlife Trust. In a recent interview he said; ''I have never said this before, but we have enough credible sightings for me to believe we have Big Cats in Wiltshire''

As said earlier four-teans feel badly let down by this episode. We once again must stress that the four-teans have never claimed anything, even with our Huddisford finds. We will always seek the truth in cryptozoology, rather than wishful thinking. A successful debunk is welcomed, there are always more mystery animals that could just possibly be real to investigate. We would also like to add that we as a group have made no financial gain whatsoever from either the Huddisford or Longleat finds, nor are we planning to. I hope this blog goes some way towards putting the record straight and re-establishing some trust. We would be happy to receive comments.

27 comments:

  1. Somehow I think that the rules set out by the Companies Act and by Companies House applies to *companies*. BARS doesn't look much like a company to me.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Actually these same rules apply to all bodies, associations, societies, organisations, charities etc, as well as companies.

    This is to protect the public from being exploited by dubious organisations.

    If I started an organisation called, "Her Majesty's Royal British Zoological Society",
    (using names also included in the list), do you think I would be allowed to do so.

    I very much doubt it.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I'm a member, and proud to be, of BCIB research group. After reading this blog. I assume its ok then for the BCIB group to use "British" in the title?

    Whilst I must say I have no gripe with CFZ personally I do feel a little uneasy about leopard hairs being id'd at the CFZ weird weekend. Just a little too "convenient" for me. I just dont think we have many leopards in the uk, well 1 or 2 maybe but no more. Also the fact the cfz found them whilst out with a film crew - please guys try again.

    Also I just cant follow the BARS/WPR and four-tean argument? (call me a twit if you like) Who found them and who claimed it?

    Now dont get me wrong I do believe large cats are out and about in the UK, but man eating leopards? And lets be honest about this as they are man eaters in their natural countries so why not in the UK? Cover up? So I just feel all this is not quite right somewhere.

    Rik Snook

    www.bigcatsinkent.org

    ReplyDelete
  4. Quis custodiet ipsos custodies28 September 2010 20:23

    I think many reading your blog would just expect you to attack the CFZ as that really had seemed to be your main intent after all, well it usually is. Even now with a blog relating to completely unconnected organization you attempt to drag them into it to quote you

    'The CFZ are not to blame for anything, although they are connected to it'

    By connected I take it you mean that the CFZ hosted the Weird Weekend, if however you are trying to imply that they are connected to the unraveling of the Wiltshire Phenomena Research group in this sorry tale, actually that honor falls to your mighty paws.

    So would it not have been better to simply state

    'the CFZ are not to blame for anything this time' or 'I put my paws up I did it.'

    Sadly from this sorry tale we can see that you were the unwitting catalyst in the collapse of the WPR all stemming form a careless swipe at the CFZ in a previous posting that resulted in the WPR getting publicity they never wanted.
    It stems from a posting that suggested that Jon Downes was claiming all the applause for the hair samples tested at the Weird Weekend. It now appears that he wouldn’t have known about the WPR samples at the time. For a start the sample has little to do with the WPR and even the Four Teans (it is a good one that) admit to keeping a low profile (give the WPR stance that is hardly surprising) I doubt that anyone other than Lars Thomas may have known who’s hair was getting looked at

    Highland Tiger your intentions are good but you do need to move away from the CFZ baiting as the rest of blog shows you can do some real good in highlighting the rather mixed up world at the fringes of cryptozoology.

    The WPR do seem to be as you say a Skeptic organization and it is as you state hardly surprising that a hair in the wrong place could caused such trouble, I can only imagine that a finding a short curly grey pubic hair in your mouthful of trifle could compare to it.

    As you point out a skeptic organization should not be mistaken for skeptical they are two completely different beasts and once again you can see why they wouldn’t want to accept the hair sample as genuine.

    Again you are correct in stating it is true that a leopard hair does not confirm the presence of leopards in the British countryside it merely proves that there are leopard hairs to be found in the countryside, maybe it is another step in the search but still a way off proof positive.

    It also appears that rather than unraveling the CFZ have moved on being able hair samples checked at a number of locations without imploding. As for the WPR we really do see an organization in melt down.

    Now Highland Tiger I know that you often claim credit for happenings and changes that you have merely commented on, so I thought I would have a go at that so remember my comment of 21 August made under my original name anonymous.

    'Another word of caution for Wiltshire Phenomena Research Group beware the Highland Tiger for he is a bitter creature. Like his wild namesake this animal is shy and elusive but when approached will spit bile at all regardless of their intentions'

    It appears that the WPR strayed a little to close to the Highland Tiger cage and now the WPR or The British Anomalistic Research Society (BARsoc) as they are now known are caught in your sights. He’s on your case now and the Tiger will be on you when you step across the line, sterling work Highland Tiger in the companies house info, I like many I will looking forward to the WPR BARsoc reply regarding the truthful use of the name.

    It is funny to think that had not the gaze of the fearsome Highland Tiger not fallen upon them then the WPR may still exist today funny old world.

    Highland Tiger 1 - Skeptics 0

    I look forward to you Nessie pictures appearing soon

    ReplyDelete
  5. quis custodiet ipsos custodes28 September 2010 20:25

    I think many reading your blog would just expect you to attack the CFZ as that really had seemed to be your main intent after all, well it usually is. Even now with a blog relating to completely unconnected organization you attempt to drag them into it to quote you
    'The CFZ are not to blame for anything, although they are connected to it'
    By connected I take it you mean that the CFZ hosted the Weird Weekend, if however you are trying to imply that they are connected to the unraveling of the Wiltshire Phenomena Research group in this sorry tale, actually that honor falls to your mighty paws.
    So would it not have been better to simply state 'the CFZ are not to blame for anything this time' or 'I put my paws up I did it.'
    Sadly from this sorry tale we can see that you were the unwitting catalyst in the collapse of the WPR all stemming form a careless swipe at the CFZ in a previous posting that resulted in the WPR getting publicity they never wanted.
    It stems from a posting that suggested that Jon Downes was claiming all the applause for the hair samples tested at the Weird Weekend. It now appears that he wouldn’t have known about the WPR samples at the time. For a start the sample have little to do with the WPR and it even the Four Teans (it is a good one that) admit to keeping a low profile (give the WPR stance that is hardly surprising) I doubt that anyone other than Lars Thomas may have known who’s hair was getting looked at
    Highland Tiger your intentions are good but you do need to move away from the CFZ baiting as the rest of blog shows you can do some real good in highlighting the rather mixed up world at the fringes of cryptozoology.

    ReplyDelete
  6. If there are only 1 or 2 leopards, and i'm not disputing or being argumentative about it, surely they would have died out by now, or are on the point of being ?

    ReplyDelete
  7. quis custodiet ipsos custodes28 September 2010 20:26

    part 2

    The WPR do seem to be as you say a Skeptic organization and it is as you state hardly surprising that a hair in the wrong place could caused such trouble, I can only imagine that a finding a short curly grey pubic hair in your mouthful of trifle could compare to it.

    As you point out a skeptic organization should not be mistaken for skeptical they are two completely different beasts and once again you can see why they wouldn’t want to accept the hair sample as genuine.

    Again you are correct in stating it is true that a leopard hair does not confirm the presence of leopards in the British countryside it merely proves that there are leopard hairs to be found in the countryside, maybe it is another step in the search but still a way off proof positive.

    It also appears that rather than unraveling the CFZ have moved on being able hair samples checked at a number of locations without imploding. As for the WPR we really do see an organization in melt down.

    Now Highland Tiger I know that you often claim credit for happenings and changes that you have merely commented on, so I thought I would have a go at that so remember my comment of 21 August made under my original name anonymous.

    'Another word of caution for Wiltshire Phenomena Research Group beware the Highland Tiger for he is a bitter creature. Like his wild namesake this animal is shy and elusive but when approached will spit bile at all regardless of their intentions'

    It appears that the WPR strayed a little to close to the Highland Tiger cage and now the WPR or The British Anomalistic Research Society (BARsoc) as they are now known are caught in your sights. He’s on your case now and the Tiger will be on you when you step across the line, sterling work Highland Tiger in the companies house info, I like many I will looking forward to the WPR BARsoc reply regarding the truthful use of the name. It is funny to think that had not the gaze of the fearsome Highland Tiger not fallen upon them then the WPR may still exist today funny old world.

    Highland Tiger 1 - Skeptics 0

    I look forward to you Nessie pictures appearing soon

    ReplyDelete
  8. quis custodiet ipsos custodes28 September 2010 20:39

    Rik I couldn’t comment on the actually numbers of Leopards in the UK there just isn’t enough evidence to give a firm indication of numbers involved be it 1 or a 1000. But why do you have you such doubts about the hair being identified at the weird weekend , considering one of the speakers was Lars Thomas and it was know he would be checking hair samples it was hardly surprising that the chance of finding some hairs would exist.

    It is an interesting question you ask about the signs of man eating leopards well if we look at the figure of 275,000 missing people reports recorded in one year (the independent 11/10/09) there is plenty of scope for a human snack going unrecorded amongst them.

    ReplyDelete
  9. @Rick Snook. I might be missing something, but I wasn't aware the BCIB actually used the word "British" in their title. They use the word "Britain".

    The rules regsrding the use of "Britain" is as such.

    "If you wish to use this word at the start of your company name you would need to show that the company is pre-eminent in its field by providing independent support from a representative body, trade association or government department.

    If the word is used elsewhere in the name, you would be expected to show that your company is substantial in relation to its activity or product and that it is eminent in its own field."

    The use of the word "Britain" by the BCIB falls into the second category, and as far as I can see the BCIB and their activities certainly allow them the use of the word, and they are certainly "eminent" in their field.

    ReplyDelete
  10. @Quis. My point about the CFZ at the start was a little humour aimed at those who think I only talk about the CFZ. As I said to a CFZ member this week, the directorate are starting to get their act together and put themselves on a firm and legal footing, which I certainly applaud.

    ReplyDelete
  11. @Cryptonod

    "surely they would have died out by now".

    I know some researchers believe there have been regular releases and escapes over the years, topping up the big cat population.

    Although I doubt there are many more than a couple of dozen big cats, (Puma's leopards etc) in the UK at any one time.

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  12. quis custodiet, I cant comment on numbers either but due to the lack of evidence from ANYONE I'd have to say it'll be a small number. And I believe we have them. Trouble is using the missing person stat its just that, they are missing. No bodies or bone's found, unless you believe in the cover up theory. I just find it hard to believe that Leopard hair just happened to be found by the CFZ at the CFZ conference when the CFZ had a film crew following them. Sorry to say it really but it seems like too many coincidences to me.

    Just my thoughts and faults too no doubt

    Rik Snook

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  13. @ Highland Tiger yer ok sorry mate my fault

    And its Rik lol

    Rik Snook

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  14. I know all the different gropus appear mistrustful of each other, but surely the comment ''I just find it hard to believe that Leopard hair just happened to be found by the CFZ at the CFZ conference when the CFZ had a film crew following them'' would be like someone else saying ''it's convenient BCIB found something'' if you came across evidence. the fact is by the very nature of these organisations they are out looking for evidence. It's unlikely someone with no interest is going to find anything.
    Anyway......It was not necessarily the CFZ that found them, look deeper

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  15. Yeah cos y'know her *MAJESTY* might have something to do with it.

    Look, if you have the law behind it, say it. If not, shut up.

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  16. Not that I believe I'm definitely right, but you did rather change the terms by bringing in royal approval.

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  17. It would be yes, at a BCIB conference, with a film crew on us! Look at it that way. If it was a member out on his or her own (and recently I have spent a lot of hours out walking on my own looking) then not so iffy looking. And I agree with what you say about the groups looking because look we do. I wish the cfz well in every respect in all they do and congratulate them if it was a genuine find, I have no issue with cfz and even admire some of the work they do. All I'm saying is think about it, by a cfz member, at the cfz conference with a film crew following the cfz. Look at it from a member of the publics point of view, they'd say come on pull the other one.

    Rik Snook

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  18. I too think it'f funny CFZ found hairs at that time, and numerous posts on their blog from yours truly that they wont publish says I'm right. As to alien big cats in the British Isles then I reckon the figure your looking for is closer to 0.

    I love this blog!

    Bilbo

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  19. Oh my - so what did happen in Huddisford Wood? I am most curious to know since Bilbo seems to be extremely well informed as to the hows and whys of that little event.Perhaps no hairs were found at all? Or if so, perhaps they were planted? Or perhaps they were misidentified - deliberately or by a simple error? Or what? Pray tell.

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  20. To anonymous,

    If anyone wishes to check the names that need permission to be used then feel free to have a look at

    http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#appa

    Now I know people will say, "well we are not a company or charity or such, so it doesn't apply to us". But you have to ask yourselves, does the general public know that you are not.

    If you try to protect the name in any form, then permission will need to be granted for use of those terms

    What is to stop me or anyone else setting up a counter organisation myself and calling it the same name "The British Anomalistic Research Society".


    THT

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  21. quis custodiet ipsos custodes29 September 2010 13:09

    Having read both Bilbo and Rik Snook’s comments regarding the coincidence of leopard hair being found at the weird weekend I take it that the pair of you will be signing up to The British Anomalistic Research Society as a right pair of sceptics.
    Would you still find it suspicious is the hair samples had been found at the BCIB conference?
    As for the number of alien big cats in the countryside Bilbo you are certainly looking at more than 0 as for the exact number that is still open to question as is were they have come from?

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  22. To answer your question quis: No I wouldn't find it suspicious if the hair had shown up at a BCIB conference. Why? Well it is a credibility thing. The BCIB seem pretty down to earth and more focused. Yes I'm sure there is an interest they have in other mysteries but not as outlandish and sometimes strange as the CFZ. Sometimes when you believe in the weird a little too much it can have an adverse effect on what you are trying to accomplish. When it comes to myself (a member of the public) to say who I would take more seriously about a topic (cz wise) it would be hands down BCIB. The other thing is image and this is no offence to any CFZ members. The image you put over is very important to whether people at least consider your opinion. I personally have always found the CFZ a little too new age and out there which, don't get me wrong is perfectly acceptable to me, but when you are trying to say that you are proffessional and a leader in the field and believe or at least consider what we say, I just can't buy in to it enough because of the sometimes casual approach. That doesn't mean I won't browse the site, read with interest a few things but I wouldn't buy a book or dvd or anything. Just my own observations anyway. If they think they are fine the way they are then that is fine too.
    With regards to the hairs I think people need to calm down and realize there are far more important things in life. Anyway I think that dude from the Four-teans will end up hooking up with Hayley. Anyone with me?

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  23. No....I dont think anyone's with you on that one anonymous! Just to make things clear also, (although this started as Longleat and not Huddisford)re; Huddisford. Lars was there,and Lars is a CFZ member, but and it's a big but, no one else from CFZ was in attendance or made finds, Unless you count persons who happen to subscribe to Animals and Men being CFZ members, which I dont. How can simply subscribing to a magazine make you a member of an organisation?
    As for Lars manipulating results or similar, would you risk, what is im sure, a lucrative academic career for 5 minutes in the limelight? I wouldn't!

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  24. I think we should leave BCIB out of this now. Other than the fact I said I was a BCIB member and proud to be they have nothing to do with it. Sorry I brought them up really as I know they wouldnt want to get involved in any squabbles at all. Bilbo, I believe the cats are out there just few in number, a few more than 0 anyway. Also in regards to the hairs found if it was all in good grace I wish everyone all the best and good luck, about time someone proved their existence.

    Rik Snook www.bigcatsinkent.org

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  25. Crytonod said: "Lars was there,and Lars is a CFZ member, but and it's a big but, no one else from CFZ was in attendance or made finds"

    I was there. I'm a CFZ member and not a mere subscriber. I together with Nadia Novali made one of the finds.

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  26. I wasn't aware you were CFZ?? You were there by invitation of Nadia / Perry as you didn't have anything to do.
    four-teans were asked weeks in advance to go by the film crew, on the basis of the previous years filming and finds. Another person even invited themselves along, having found out about it on the morning, obviously because they wanted to be on film. They may have been CFZ too I suppose. I didn't ask. Perhaps I should have.

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  27. Yes, I was invited by Nadia and Perry; the presence of a film crew was certainly not an incentive.

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